Episode #76 features:
Special: Star Trek v Star Wars
Bo and David are joined by special guest Robert from ST-vSW.net and discuss all things Star Trek vs Star Wars, including the difference in Fans, Canon rules and changes, the imposter Spock & who would win in a dogfight between the Millennium Falcon and the Defiant…and much much more!
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Thanks again to Robert for joining us and sharing his extensive knowledge of Star Trek & Star Wars with us. If you have even the slightest bit of curiosity about the Star Trek vs Star Wars debate, or Star Trek/Star Wars canon, please check out his awesome collection of websites. You wont be disappointed.
Star Trek v Star Wars
CanonWars
No Letters Home
And for a different view/opinion on the debate check out – stardestroyer.net
Robert is a highly bias liar when it comes to Star Wars. The other websites he refers is stardestroyer.net, which is a far more factual website and is written by a Mechanic Engineer… whereas Robert has no qualifications to be talking about stuff like this.
So you wanna site written by a man with a mechanical engineer background look to stardestroyer.net.
Something being written by a mechanical engineer doesn’t mean anything when said engineer was never interested in objective analysis. It only means that crap is going to get nicer celophane.
And sorry for harsh language, but I’m allergic to anyone using such reasoning… to provide an example: early in the Vietnam war, US Army used M14. It was heavy, semi-automatic rifle which was very hard to maintain. As a result, Viet Cong achieved significant exchange ratio advantage over the US troops. But US Special Forces used AR-15, an automatic rifle that was significantly lighter and more reliable than the M14. Yet US generals resisted introducing the AR-15 on the basis that it was “not enough of a rifle” for them, and when they did, they introduced “militarized” M-16; “militarized” meaning heavier, less reliable weapon that was additionally issued without cleaning kits. Result was that hundreds if not thousands of US troops died with jammed M16 in their hands… problem was only fixed after a Congressional investigation. Generals f***ed up because emotions have overriden the logic, and their experience didn’t help them prevent that.
Hi Robert
Thank you for taking the time to listen to the show and especially for leaving a comment. We at NCP are open to all sides of a debate, so I was very interested in your suggestion. While researching this episode, I did in fact check out stardestroyer.net and, despite disagreeing with a couple of points, I found it to be an interesting and thought provoking site.
But to be honest, I decided to go with Robert because not only did I find him to be an interesting, friendly, and informative guy, I also agreed with most of his research. That in no way means I think he is completely 100% right. Like I said above I found some of the arguments on stardestroyer.net to be perfectly reasonable as well, but for the most part, as much as I love the Star Wars universe, I do believe the Trek franchise would win.
Of course that in no way impinges on your beliefs, I can see points for both sides, and I am more than happy to be proven wrong. But as it stands I’m going with Trek.
So again, I thank you for your comment. I don’t approve of the personal attack on my guest, but I believe you’re entitled to your opinion and I do appreciate your suggestion. So I am going to add a link to stardestroyer.net in the post.
Robert, you do realize that you just gave one hell of an Appeal to Authority and Poisoning of the Well intro there? A lot of the evidence provided on SDN is of a distorted nature, given it is supposed to be from the perspective of an Imperial officer, who is really giving propaganda, but trying to make it look like a legitimate tactical and strategic technical report. Also, those pages are over ten years out of date, and do not take into account the newer evidence that Star Wars: The Clone Wars CGI movie and TV series provide or the EU in the form of the Death Star novel, nor Star Trek: Enterprise that do not line up with the conclusions of that site.
Sorry, that probably came across as zealous and unprovoked. I only know Robert from his site, so I didn’t mean any offence on any kind of personal level :). He seems like a nice guy in reality lol, and I was probably laying it on a bit thick with “highly bias liar”.
The examples of bias are mostly only present in the SW analysis to be fair, like if you looked at his blasters page? It features a picture of Leia with the flesh wound and concludes “I’d rather use bullets, thanks”, or something to that effect, and completely ignores other instances of blaster firepower and the fact they have “power settings”.
Check out these pages which analyze the higher settings in contrast to Roberts conclusions…
http://www.galacticempirewars.com/high-settingshttp://www.galacticempirewars.com/effects-on-the-body
Would you sooner use bullets? 🙂
He does the same on the Falcon page, where he analyzes SW propulsion. He uses only one example and concludes the Falcon is capable of no more than <20 G. In A New Hope we see the Death Star get past the gas giant Yavin Prime (200,000 km diameter) in fifteen minutes, which requires at least a hundred G's and insane velocities. The X-wings achieved it in a fraction, implying thousands of G's. The Enterprise is capable of 1000G.
Its this trend of low balling star wars by orders of magnitude I find bias.
"Of course that in no way impinges on your beliefs, I can see points for both sides, and I am more than happy to be proven wrong. But as it stands I’m going with Trek."
Fair enough. In seriousness then, objectively consider the disadvantages Star Trek have in numbers and speed. The entire plot line of Voyager revolves around the fact that Federation ships are not trans-galactic capable. It would take 70 years to cross the galaxy. In Star Wars ships can do this in less than a day(!) and they outnumber the Federation (millions of ships vs thousands, millions of planets vs thousands). How can the Empire possibly lose?
In Star Trek planets generally have little to no space ship defence, how often do you recall Enterprise receiving distress calls from distressed planets and taking days, weeks or even months to get there? Similarly communications can take days or weeks to cross the Federation. . . so a Star Destroyer could literally turn up at a planet, stone age it from space, move to another planet before anyone has even received signals from the first, repeat, and so on… cos Star Wars ships easily outrun even communications in Star Trek. This is another reason I feel Robert has to be bias for Trek, because he is so obviously intelligent and well researched, I can't comprehend how he couldn't conceed to those points :S
Brian Young covers this subject under Federation Terriorty in a video commentary if you'd like to check it out? http://www.scifights.net/SciFights.net/Star_Trek.html
To be fair if you're into this kinda technical sci fi comparison stuff, I'd of thought you'd like Brians videos :O) so long as you don't mind Texas accents too much.
He covers Star Wars vs Star Trek too, rather extensively.
Hi Robert!
I just want to say, that this has to be the best ‘reply’ comment we have ever gotten. I sincerely thank you for taking the time to reply in the thought provoking, articulate, and pleasant way that you did. I especially thank you for your opening paragraph. It is awesome.
You make some valid points, no doubt about that and I admit that you’ve stirred my curiosity. I’ll definitely be checking out your links (I’m sure I can get past the Texan accent. It’s no worse than country Australian! :)). You never know, I may be swayed….maybe lol
Thank you again Robert. You’ve made my day. Take care, and I hope that you’ll stick around for future episodes.
P.S. I hope that this is cool with you, but I’ll be mentioning your awesome comments in our next episode. Let me know if you’d prefer I didn’t.
When I first saw that first comment I had composed a nice long takedown of it in my head, but haven’t had time to put it to keyboard. It’s been so long since I saw such a claim. So, I, too, would like to applaud this other Robert for both stepping back from the initial appeal to authority fallacy and related insults and actually trying to provide topical examples.
As for the examples provided . . .
1. Orbit of a planet at ludicrous speed requires no significant energy input from the orbiting body . . . our current space probes, hardly of great engine output, do this all the time. To my knowledge, there have been no claims to suggest that the Death Star was engaged in a powered orbit at all, as opposed to taking advantage of the gravitational acceleration of the gas giant and its speed on exit from hyperspace. Of course, thanks to repulsors (which can only be used near a gravitational body), the powered orbit (if it was one) need not have involved direct thrust anyway.
That’s why the Falcon example I use is so useful. They are away from planets, in relatively open space, and we see the ship on full burn. We therefore need not worry about repulsor use, and thus get to see the engines themselves. And as noted, they do not compare favorably with Trek. On repulsors (i.e. near a planet), things may be different, but the evidence suggests it is not very different.
2. While, as noted in the podcast, there are indications from TCW of faster speeds than on my old site pages, there are still not indications of transgalactic capability. “Shadow of Malevolence”, as noted on my Comparison page, involves the “they told me this ship was fast” Malevolence taking a long time to cross ten parsecs, and of course there are the older film speed references I cover here: http://st-v-sw.net/STSWhyperspeed.html
If hyperdrive were capable of getting them cross the galaxy in a day, it’d have to be an awfully small galaxy.
3. Star Trek planets have shields and weapons of such authoritative range that no Star Destroyer could possibly get close enough to attack without trickery, and it would only take a handful of their town-busting shots before the planet responded. They could wipe out a single-town small un-defended colony, but that’s about it. http://st-v-sw.net/STSW-WeaponRange.html http://st-v-sw.net/STSWcompare.html#PlDef
4. Brian Young, bless his heart, has innovated the debate by use of video, but not in a good way. You can find numerous discussions of his videos on starfleetjedi.net/forum . . . basically, if you watch one it seems convincing, but it wouldn’t pass the scrutiny of actually being read as text where you can think about it as you go.
5. I’ll check out that GalacticEmpire site, but from a first glimpse I don’t see anything new.
Hi Robert, aka Darkstar. I wonder why you spend so much time poisoning my well? My videos are convincing, because they include the evidence for all to see. I’d suggest people watch them and decide for themselves.
Pardon? “So much time”? I just googled you on my site and blog. There is not a single reference to your new stuff and no negative references to you at all that I see. Check for yourself… search brian young site:st-v-sw.net or dsg2k.blogspot.com
One would think that if I were all about some well-poisoning I would at least trash you from the safety of my proverbial castle, rather than post a review only when prompted by someone else doing the same.
In any case, what you erroneously call well-poisoning is instead simply my opinion of your work. As noted, I think your technique is innovative within the community, but I don’t think your arguments stand up to scrutiny, however rhetorically well-presented they are in the video format. I then further mentioned a location where specific further reference could be found. My posts are there, also, under the name 2046, and you’ll see that while I have participated in threads discussing your work and have been highly critical of it, I have hardly led or even been a significant player in anything resembling your imagined campaign of poisoning the well of discourse, and I will thank you to refrain from such imaginings in the future.
“My videos are convincing, because they include the evidence for all to see. I’d suggest people watch them and decide for themselves.”
Brian, there is good reason to criticize the contents of your videos as much as anything else as I show in this review and it’s subsequent discussion here:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3281
Poster 395 of ASVS and SFJN has several good reviews of your Case Studies as well:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6523
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6464
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6523
Then there is the original commentary from when your site first started:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3024
Brian, what it all really boils down to is that you come to your conclusions first and then try to cherrypick the evidence to fit around that rather than truly let the evidence go where it leads, disregarding or handwaving away anything that does not fit that. This is all well-documented in the reviews and threads, and I haven’t even touched on your YouTube videos yet. That Slave I video was just chock full of bad methodology in order to try and warp everything to fit the numbers in the ICS books you contributed to.
Hmm, I did help make rather too much fun of the accent back in 2012. I was aiming for general comedy, but my apologies if your feelings were hurt.
“I’ll check out that GalacticEmpire site, but from a first glimpse I don’t see anything new.”
Thats my site, and it is incomplete, but there is already “new” content that hasn’t been covered in the same way before. The blaster effects on human targets and vehicular armour pages are prime examples.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=D9mzhSntoM8
Hi Brian. Thank you for making this video. It was very interesting and I must say you are very brave to talk about your obviously painful past like this. I also thank you for taking the time to listen to the show, (even if it was only the first 15 mins). Personal attacks are never ok, and I am glad that no-one commenting on this site has directed any to you. Take care.
Hi everyone.
I just want to give you all a heartfelt thanks for taking the time to comment on this episode. We’ve had comments on other episodes/posts, but this is the first one to have such a huge response and all sides of the arguments have been very interesting. Thanks again!
Thanks David. None of those comments were directed at your podcast. Although your guest was involved. I put a link with the YouTube video, maybe a few more people will give it a listen. I’ll probably subscribe when I manage to get a newer, quieter vehicle. That way I can listen as I drive between patients. It sounds like you have a heck of a show.
Thanks Brian! Glad to have you as a fan 🙂
I’m disappointed in you, Brian. Very disappointed. Let me address some of what was in your very manipulative little video. First off, just counting off how many clips you put in a case study is of no bearing when often you take a lot of that evidence out of context in the episode. Let me run through a few examples take from my critique of your Minbari vs Federation case study that I linked to just to give some examples:
1.) In the case study you claim that Federation speeds are limited to those of the 1,000 to 2,000c speeds of the non-canon The Star Trek the Next Generation Technical Manual while disregarding many examples in the TOS canon that were far higher. For example I give in my critique several examples that clearly contradict the one sole source you chose to go with such as this one I gave from the season two episode “Obsession” :
KIRK: Whatever it is, Doctor, whatever it is, wouldn’t you call it deadly?
MCCOY: Yes, there’s no doubt about that.
KIRK: And what if it is the same creature that attacked eleven years ago from a planet over a thousand light years from here?
SPOCK: Obviously, Captain, if it is an intelligent creature, if it is the same one, if it therefore is capable of space travel, it could pose a great threat to inhabited planets.
That planet is Tycho IV and is stated here to be “over a thousand light years” away. Later a time estimate to reach that planet and return across that distance to rendezvous with another starship is given:
KIRK: Yes, I think I do. I don’t know how I know, but home is where it fought a starship once before. (to Uhura) Inform them of our tactical situation and inform them I’m committing this vessel to the destruction of the creature. We will rendezvous. Round-trip time, Mister Chekov.
CHEKOV: One point seven days, sir.
KIRK: We will rendezvous with the USS Yorktown in forty eight hours.
That’s a minimum of 2,000 light years x 365/48 = 365,000 c. I know you can do the math, Brian. So tell me how this example is overrided by the TNG TM?
Another example was from third season TOS “That Which Survives”:
SPOCK: A positional change.
RAHDA: It doesn’t make any sense. But somehow I’d say that in a flash we’ve been knocked one thousand light years away from where we were.
SPOCK: Nine hundred and ninety point seven light years to be exact, Lieutenant.
Enterprise gets transported 990.7 light years across space and must now return at best possible speed back to a planet where Captain Kirk and the rest of a landing party are stranded on, which we get the following time factor to return:
RAHDA: We’re holding warp eight point four, sir. If we can maintain it, our estimated time of arrival is eleven and one half solar hours.
SPOCK: Eleven point three three seven hours, Lieutenant. I wish you would be more precise.
Even if it took a few minutes or even an hour to reach warp 8.4, it won’t affect the speed or time of arrival much. We have a clearly stated distance of 990.7 light years and a clear estimated time of arrival; 11.337 hours. We’ll round up and say 12, just to cover possible acceleration time to warp 8.4. Thus 990.7 x 365 light days = 361,853 x 24 hours = 8,678,532 divided by 12 = 723,211 c. That’s 31 times faster than the fastest example given from B5.
I certainly cannot believe that someone who claims to take highly meticulous notes on every episode and movie would miss these well-defined examples. So how did you miss them? Why didn’t you include them? Why did you hand-wave them away? If you did know about those two examples, you surely know about similar examples of that corroborate those speeds, such as “Bread and Circuses” from season two that has the following:
(Everyone on the Bridge is staring at Spock’s back, as he analyses some sensor data.)
SPOCK: No doubt about it, Captain. The space debris comes from the survey vessel SS Beagle.
KIRK: Missing for six years, and now this junk in space.
SPOCK: Portions of the antimatter nacelles, personal belongings. Captain, no signs of bodies whatsoever.
KIRK: Then whatever destroyed the ship, the crew was able to get off safely. Navigator, compute the present drift of the wreckage.
CHEKOV: Computed and on the board, sir.
KIRK: Mister Spock, assuming that the wreckage drifted at the same speed and direction for the past six years?
SPOCK: It would have come from planet four, star system eight nine two, directly ahead.
CHEKOV: Only one sixteenth parsec away, Captain. We should be there in seconds.
KIRK: Standard orbit around the planet. There may be survivors there.
One-sixteenth of a parsec is about 12,850,920 light seconds and it takes about 30 seconds for them to reach the planet (there are several cuts in this scene, but there is dialogue over them which makes it clear that there are no significant cuts in the timeline of the events) or 428,364c. That’s pretty consistent with Obsession. I also cite in my critique review “Where no Man Has Gone Before” and the implications that would have for the 5 year mission, if they were only limited to the tech manual speeds, or how the ship could not possibly have gotten from Gothos to Earth (Stated to be 900 light years from Earth) again in time for “Assignment: Earth”, if the ship were only limited to 1,000c, and still have all the big adventures they went through in that time. For those who keep track, “The Squire of Gothos” is episode 18 of TOS and “Assignment: Earth” is 55. That’s at least 37 big adventures there, many of them taking up several days or more of time, plus there are many mentions of starbase layovers, Brian. So how did such a limited speed allow for all that? But speeds greater than 10,000c do.
So,again, how did you miss all that? You can’t, unless you cherrypick. I’ve just cited a ton of evidence here. No clips, but they can be checked out easily enough.
But that’s not all the issues. The phaser issue comes next. I don’t know why you did it, but you somehow, like the warp speed, missed those as well. For example, you missed the context of Lazarus’ ship:
LAZARUS: You wouldn’t believe me if I told you.
KIRK: Try us.
LAZARUS: All right. I distorted a fact in the interest of self-preservation, for my holy cause. I needed help, not censure. Freedom, not captivity for being a madman. I was afraid that’s what you’d call me if I told you the truth.
KIRK: I’ll have the truth now.
LAZARUS: My planet, my Earth, or what’s left of it, is down there beneath us.
KIRK: What are you saying?
LAZARUS: My spaceship is more than just that. It’s a time chamber, a time-ship, and I. I am a time traveller.
KIRK: And this thing you search for is a time traveler, too?
LAZARUS: Oh, yes. He’s fled me across all the years, all the empty years to a dead future on a murdered planet he destroyed. Help me! Give me the tools I need to kill him! The crystals! Don’t let him get away! Don’t let him get away.
So it’s not a simple shuttlecraft, it’s a freaking timeship and not just that, either:
SPOCK: Incredible, Captain.
(And again.)
KIRK: What was that?
SPOCK: What my instruments read is totally unbelievable, Captain. Twice, for a split second each time, everything within range of our instruments seemed on the verge of winking out.
KIRK: I want facts, not poetry.
SPOCK: I have given you the facts, Captain. The entire magnetic field in this solar system simply blinked. The planet below, the mass of which we’re measuring, attained zero gravity.
KIRK: That’s impossible. What you’re describing
SPOCK: Is non-existence.
UHURA: Standard General Alert signal from Starfleet Command, Captain.
KIRK: All stations to immediate alert status. Stand by.
SPOCK: Captain, scanners now report a life object on the planet surface below.
KIRK: You just did a complete life survey five minutes ago. How are you just picking it up now?
SPOCK: Inexplicable, Captain. This reading began at approximately the moment that the pulsation phenomenon began to subside.
KIRK: Well, what is it, this object? Its physical makeup?
SPOCK: A living being. Body temperature 98.5 Fahrenheit. Mass, electrical impulses, movement. It is apparently human, Captain.
KIRK: And its appearance coincided with this cosmic winking-out?
SPOCK; Almost to the second.
And…
KIRK: Exactly what did I pass through?
LAZARUS: That’s hard to explain, Captain. I call it an alternative warp. It’s sort of a negative magnetic corridor where the two parallel universes meet. It’s sort of a safety valve. It keeps eternity from blowing up.
KIRK: This corridor, is it what caused the magnetic effect, the winking out phenomenon?
LAZARUS: Precisely, Captain, but not because of its existence. Because, because my foe entered. The corridor is like a prison, with explosives at the door. Open the door, and the explosives might go off. Stay inside
KIRK: And the universe is safe.
LAZARUS: Both universes, Captain. Yours and mine.
So that’s what the little “ship” can do. It can wink out everything and can provide a corridor between universes. So you didn’t think that would play a role in the phasers effect on it? No?
I also brought up the cut context of the phaser bombardment on Apollo’s temple in “Who Mourns for Adonis?” where we got this:
SPOCK: Mister Kyle.
KYLE: Yes, sir.
SPOCK: We’re unable to break completely loose from this force field, but we might be able to punch some holes through it.
KYLE: What for, sir?
SPOCK: To shoot through. It might also relieve Lieutenant Uhura’s communications problem. Take these equations to the nuclear electronics lab. I want them to work on the problem of negating the force field in selected areas. That might be done by generating a strong pinpoint charge of M-rays on some of these selected wave lengths and tying them in with the combined output of all our engines.
KYLE: Right away, sir
So, Brian, you missed that bit about the M-rays and the fact that the ship’s combined engine power had to go into punching holes with the M-rays through Apollo’s hand-shaped force field. How could you? You said you took notes. So why was this critical piece of evidence and context overlooked? Because it hurt your case, that’s why. Just like Vaal’s shield in “The Apple”, this all means we can’t use these examples as reliable ones.
Lets go on further with the next step, the use of defense fields, structural integrity fields for Trek ships that you left out when trying to compare damage done in the TOS episodes to the damage Reliant does in Wrath Khan and saying that they are all nearly identical when they are not, and I provided the context for Khan also wanting initially to keep Kirk alive long enough to gloat his victory over him. Hell, Brian, I countered your statements with plenty of screencaps, including some from Star Trek: Enterprise which show, and I did a separate article on how heavily built the Constitution-class refits are.
Lastly,
In your video, your latest video, you cried about how mean we all are to you, but you know what? You are a hypocrite. You looked the other way for a decade and a half as your close buddies Wayne Poe and Michael Wong viciously attacked Graham Kennedy and other people for nothing more than disagreeing with them on who’d win, no matter what evidence was provided. And you know what? You didn’t do a damn thing about it. Ever. Not once that I know of. So now you’re upset because a few people call you out on your questionable analysis work.
What a piece of work. I will gleefully from now on tear your videos apart and without reservation.
Oh, as for the SFJN wiki. Not once has Tyralak ever asked for a correction change, even though he can at any point. It’s an open source wiki you know. You could even do it. So no boohooing on that, either.
David, this is for a comparison:
Robert Scott Anderson’s entry at Imperialwiki:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/wiki/index.php/Robert_Scott_Anderson
Brian’s at the Database
http://starfleetjedi.net/wiki/index.php?title=Brian_Young
I hope this gives a better perspective on just how really nasty and hot-blooded this whole feud has been, and Brian a reminder of vitrol and real hatred his allies he has given praise to have heaped on many good people.
Indeed, David, I would like, first, to apologize for trying to be rather overly diplomatic with the answer regarding which fanbase is more crazily vitriolic. As I’ve been re-reading some old stuff lately (including stuff of Brian Young’s from 2002-2011) I’ve been quite reminded of just how bad the bad behavior has commonly been among some of the old crowd. We all openly show human frustration with our most intractable foes from time to time, and while Brian suffered from that affliction just as much as I have (and oh yes, I have), it is true that he didn’t try to incite home visits and other nonsense like his allies.
Part of my answer was based on the fact that I had, shortly before the interview, rediscovered the fact that I’d ceased communication in 2002 with that guy from the Section 31 project we discussed, after he’d expressed frustration with Wong and his allies in a very inappropriate manner, suggesting his own home visit of the sort fomented at StarDestroyer.Net.
Now, I realize that Brian chose not to distance himself from those who engaged in a wide array of similarly inappropriate behavior against myself and others back in the day, despite acknowledging knowing about it at the time (and having received similar from Babylon 5 fans regarding his website years before), but I do nevertheless applaud him for trying to strike a somewhat more professional tone now, even if he did choose to make fun of “Mike Disco” immediately after talking about how ill-mannered he felt the StarfleetJedi guys were.
There will be a further reply on my site/blog/wherever regarding his rather unfortunate mentions of my site during his Picking Cherries video, along with further commentary on the arguments he presents in his videos. Since he has suggested in the recent videos that the new Brian is, alas, somewhat less capable of dealing with less-than-constructive criticism than the old Brian was at dishing it out, I promise to be as kind as I can . . . but, no matter the tales about one’s youth, I do still intend to call it as I see it.
Also, my compliments to Brian for opening his heart, as he put it . . . I could tell stories of my life and times, too, but I don’t, because my adversaries . . . his old allies . . . were the sort to use that sort of thing against me, as they proved when I told the tale about a crazy stalker (hence the websites with my personal information as a one-stop shop for anyone who might wish to do me harm). That’s why I didn’t accept a guest spot on a TV show once and won’t be responding via video now . . . because I didn’t and don’t want my most psychotic foes knowing what I look like. However, I’m glad that his prior relationship with those same people largely shields him from having to worry about such things.
Maybe sometime Brian and I could really go into detail about the Talifan behavior we’ve seen and see if we can ally against it wherever it may be found. But, as long as the relationship retains its current flavor, I somehow have the sense there wouldn’t be any interest.
Thanks again,
Robert of ST-v-SW.Net